Columbia Faith & Values

Faith » Doctrine & Practice

“Then I’m going, too.”

I went to a little church in a little town just a few miles from the house that I grew up in with my parents and my little brother. I was the only one in my family who went to the church. Oh, sometimes my brother would go, but he didn't much care for it and so only went now and then. My best friend and his family went to the church, and I went with them.

We rode on the "Joy Bus," an ancient school bus which my friend's dad, and probably a couple others, somehow kept running enough to travel the gravel and the narrow asphalt roads of the county every Sunday. When the Joy Bus dropped us off at church, we would go inside to Sunday School filled with Bible stories (from the REAL Bible, you know, the one old King James put together). After Sunday School there would be the main service in a big, clean, comfortable room with carpet, the walls clean and uncluttered by decoration, save a thermostat.

We would sing a few songs from the big, old, heavy hymnals. I couldn't really read the notes in varying shapes, some squares or triangles or rectangles. I knew my part though from listening to the other men. The singing was a cappella, not because the church couldn't afford instrumentation but because they didn't do instrumentation.

The 30-minute sermon came after that. The preacher would riff on a few passages taken from his big Bible, and he would pepper his talk with bits of ancient Greek, bestowing added authority to his point. He would talk of sin and temptation, the need to keep one's mind free of sinful thoughts, and to regularly repent of all the bad things one was constantly doing and thinking. He spoke of the ways that wives and husbands and children must act and the roles they must play.

He spoke of how people were punished for sins and used his King James Bible and ancient Greek to give examples. I remember him saying that some people who'd died in a recent tragedy had been dancing, yes, dancing. The way that one must follow was very plain and humble, very narrow and demanding. He spoke of what awaited everyone who didn't accept and follow our way.

I had been asking questions for a while. Oh no, not out-loud, usually, I didn't think others would respond very well to them (and a few years later when I had the guts to routinely ask them out-loud that hunch was confirmed). But I asked them to myself, and I thought that there were some strange things that I was being told to believe and was honestly trying to believe. Some things weren't adding up and some things seemed just plain awful and mean.

Then my grandfather died.

I wasn't that close to my grandfather; he could be a difficult person. He was very opinionated and temperamental and swore profusely and creatively. He loved me in his way I know, but his way could be gruff and kind of scary to a kid. He believed in a god that he referred to as "The Man Upstairs," but he didn't go to church. I don't think he prayed, not regularly anyway. And when he died, I knew what that meant.

Sure he had his faults, but he didn't deserve to be outrageously tortured forever. He had very little education and a very difficult life – didn't that count for, I don't know, something? Well I damned sure knew what my theology had to say about it, and I had to make a decision. There was only one option, really.

If he's going to Hell, then I'm going too.

That was the statement, declared only to myself when I was 14, that started me on my current path. I wasn't an atheist yet; there was a part of me that thought what I'd been told might still have been true, but it wasn't right and the only right thing to do was stand against it. So I did.

I knew that where you went after you died was extra extra bad if you had once been among the saved and then fell. I knew that I was asking for it big time. That just didn't matter.

I now know that these things are just myths, they can't REALLY hurt you. Or can they? It sure as hell hurt at the time. I know, too, that I'm not the only one. Countless kids and trusting people, who took seriously what they were told by authority figures have been put through similar things. They still are.

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Topics: Faith, Doctrine & Practice
Beliefs: Freethought (Atheist, Humanist, Agnostic)
Tags: "joy bus", atheist, church, hell, king james bible, question

Greg Lammers

 Greg Lammers is Founder and Organizer of Columbia Atheists and National Affiliate Director for American Atheists. His work with local and national atheist organizations is driven by a desire to connect nonbelievers, build community, and promote atheism and secularism.
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Comments

  1. Thanks for sharing this experience, Greg.  I’m glad you found your own way to peace.  While it led you in one direction, similar experiences and thoughts are what lead others of us toward a faith that is liberal/progressive.  In other words, I think we’re more in common than might appear.

  2. “He believed in a god that he referred to as “The Man Upstairs,” but he didn’t go to church.”

    Did they ever open the part of the bible that says “there is therefore now no condemnation”? If not, I am truely sorry. You seem to have been shown a different god than the God I know. I am not certain that your grandfather is burning in hell, you say he believed in a god.

    Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness. Abraham, I am quite certain, never went to church.

    Yet in church, when they read the bible, hopefully at one point they read the part I know as the Transfiguration - where Jesus is witnessed in glory on the mountaintop, with Elijah and Moses - who also never “went to church”.

    I believe I do not own all the answers, but if I can be of any help to you, if you still have any questions, maybe we will both see your grandfather, in the better part of eterntiy. God is good. All the time.

  3. Hi Steve, thank you for the comment. And hey, your comment is the first one I’ve received here at Columbia FAVs! :)

    I’d bet that we have similar views on many topics but I’d also bet that we disagree quite sharply on some others. I also think thoughtful people can disagree while enjoying the exchange.

  4. Hi Roy, thank you for reading and commenting.

    I don’t know if they ever opened the bible to the verse you cite but that is not the full phrase in any case. The full phrase is: “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit” (Romans 8:1). A believer in a hell set aside for all but a select few shouldn’t have any problem with this verse, it seems to support that view.

    That’s the thing with the Bible or any “sacred” text; anyone can look into it and find anything they want. And that is exactly what is done. Nice people fashion nice gods, sad people fashion sad gods, angry people fashion angry gods, etc.

    Abraham is not a good advertisement for faith. The story of Abraham, Isaac, and the sacrifice is just awful. Anyone willing to kill their children at the behest of voices in their head needs help, not adoration. And to call any god “good” that would play such games is a mighty stretch.

    I like and respect the attitude of admitting that one doesn’t know everything. Socrates is reported to have had a similar attitude and was supposed to have been a pretty smart fellow. Your last two statements though have nothing underneath them. What basis do you have to say there is a god and that it is good?

  5. Greg,

    We grew up in the same community.  I know the little church you are talking about.  Went there many times, along with a couple others within walking distance in that same community.  Two that even had (bah bah bah bum) MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS.  Aside from obvious differences of oppinion on acceptable forms of music making the message was basically the same from every pulpit.  The recollection of my childhood perception of God, and the nature of God’s world is much the same as yours.

    I’ve experienced similar revelations about what I learned as a young boy.  My progression away from childhood indoctrination to a current understanding of the universe and my place in it has not been easy.  I still catch myself viewing the world around me from the premise of a child in those Sunday Sermons.

    Your blog caused me to recall those first nagging questions in my own heart and subsequent premise shaking revelations.  You are doing good, thoughtful work Greg.

  6. Congrats on your byline, Greg, and thanks for the great read!

    I never went through the process you describe. My mother used to have me “say my prayers” when I was about three years old, but I had no understanding of what the little ritual meant or to whom I was meant to be speaking. Elementary schools in Connecticut taught some very basic Greek, Roman and Norse mythology back then, and so when I heard things about church from friends, I kind of automatically made the connection between the old mythologies and the new.

    It wasn’t until about fifth or sixth grade that I really started to understand that my friends actually believed the stuff they were talking about, and that that fact was a significant difference between us.

    So I never went through that period of realization; I was never taught to believe, so I never had to unlearn it. And I never went through that “coming-out” process; I was too young to realize people might have a significant problem with that difference, so I talked about it openly.

    I’m pretty grateful to my parents for just stepping back and letting this part of my life develop naturally.

  7. Troi, I’m blown away.

    I remember you there. I especially remember one Sunday school session in which your pointed questions were met with mumbled evasions.

    Your natural intelligence, and your early willingness to openly question and challenge what was just supposed to be accepted, in many areas, left a deep impact on me.

    Thank you.

  8. Good morning,

    I just want to jump in and thank you all for having such a great dialogue. As editor, this is exactly the kind of exchange I hope to see – one that is honest and thoughtful. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and experiences! And wow, the Troi-Greg connection that just happened is pretty cool.

    Alright, carry on – I just wanted to say thanks to all of you! Do come back ...

    Kellie Kotraba
    Editor

  9. Thanks for sharing this, Greg. I remember when my mother died when I was about 12, people told me, “God needs her” implying more than I did. That did in my faith in an all-knowing, all-loving being.

  10. Kathy, I’m sorry you experienced that. I saw a blog post some weeks ago on “Things Christians Should Never Say” - that comment was high on the list. It’s theologically inaccurate and pastorally inappropriate (for just what you felt), though some people believe it’s “comforting.” I continue to find it shameful how many people have left religion because of “religious” people.

  11. Greg—I know I’m a little late to the party but this was an excellent piece. The misgivings you had are very similar to my own as I too struggled to believe in a God that would do the sorts of things that we are taught he does. While I do not consider myself an atheist, I can’t get behind the God that is taught by the major religions.

  12. Ryan, there are a lot of us IN the major religions who don’t believe all the things we’ve been taught that “God is,” many of which aren’t found in anyone’s scriptures.

  13. Thank you Ryan. I think the questions that you and I and so many others form(ed) are natural responses to a specific story. When the story is sold many will see similar inconsistencies. Doubt needn’t be taught, just encouraged.

  14. Steve, I’d be interested to hear more about some common or popular teachings you don’t believe, some time.

  15. Greg, for starters, check out my Nov 8 post on being a liberal Christian.  And look for my next one, sometime in the next week or so; it’s a sort-of follow-up.  But with your encouragement, I may have to say more sometime.

    Second thing, my assertion is rooted in an article I read within the last month or so, which I vaguely remember.  I’ll try to see if I can find/link it.

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